Thermal Camera Imaging during Free Practice @ Monza ! [UPDATED !]

"doodon2whls" (doodon2whls)
09/06/2013 at 11:51 • Filed to: F1, Thermal Camera, Formula 1

UPDATED: New large format HD-ish video. Front and Rear views added. H/T to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

This is the first time I have seen them broadcasting this.... VERY COOL ! er, uh, I mean HOT !

Hopefully, they will continue to show us snippets of this thermal camera during this and the rest of the races...

DISCUSSION (84)

DasWauto > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 11:56

It's working for me. Neat.

If you've got access to Chrome try this: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detai…

It emulates a British IP and makes the site (and others like BBCs iPlayer) work.

Mikeado > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 11:57

It's a new feature introduced by FOM, who provide the world feed to all channels. We can expect to see it more over the rest of the season!

doodon2whls > Mikeado
09/06/2013 at 11:59

YAY !

Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 12:13

Now I wanna see the rear tyres too!

doodon2whls > Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents
09/06/2013 at 12:18

I know !

What if the Thermal Camera equipped car ran up on another car - then we'd see the heat from the engine and tires...

Unfortunately, it looks like they may have masked a large portion of the image to be monochrome, and just the area of the front tires to visualize color-temp.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 12:31

It's actually a Predator on board. What you don't see is Arnold Schwarzenegger, because:

Kinja'd!!!

Bakkster, touring car driver > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 13:07

This tech has been available for car testing for ages, this is one of the first times I've seen it broadcast, though.

A bit amazed F1 has allowed this, what with the testing ban and the other teams crying foul over a potential advantage for the team with the camera.

doodon2whls > Bakkster, touring car driver
09/06/2013 at 13:13

No doubt.. We used FLIR cameras in the late 1990's during vehicle development trips. You can pic up a mono-scope FLIR for <$3000 now.

As for an advantage ? Not likely... All of the teams have tire temp and pressure telemetry already. Visualizing the surface temps is neat, but can hardly be construed as data unless the temp calibration is shown. In fact, you might argue that it's a detriment to the team with the camera because everyone else can see how their chassis works the tires compared to their own.

I just thought it was cool that they were broadcasting the thermal camera imagery...

2BWise > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 13:34

That is some cool stuff. I wonder what the temperature range is that they're displaying. It is very interesting to see the outside tire heat up and be completely equal in temperature across the tread. It is also interesting to see that the inside tire builds heat faster at turn than the outside tire (Ackerman induced maybe)

Bakkster, touring car driver > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 13:36

This is F1, it doesn't matter if there's a benefit or not, someone will complain anyway :)

doodon2whls > 2BWise
09/06/2013 at 13:43

To maximize cornering force at speed, F1 cars run significant negative camber on the front and even a little on the rear. This is the primary reason the inside shoulder of the front tires is hotter than the outside shoulder until the tire sees significant corner loads. During cornering, the chassis rolls (read: decambers the tire), so static negative camber combined with the camber gain geometry in the suspension and the tire carcass flexure counter this decambering, allowing the full contact patch of the tire to be work during cornering.

The static negative camber also slows turn-in and reduces straight line rolling resistance/drag.

McLarry > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 14:03

Noticed that watching on NBCs this morning! The artificial coloring looks kind of cheap to me, but still cool

2BWise > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 15:15

No. I understand that. I'm not talking the inside of the tire. I'm talking the entire inside tire tire heats up more than the outside tire at turn-in. Watch closely as the driver turns into the Lesmos.

doodon2whls > 2BWise
09/06/2013 at 15:26

Oh. Oh. Oh. Yes.. I'd say Ackerman, or an artifact of the visualization S/W they are processing the imagery with...

Detroit Velvet Smooth > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/06/2013 at 18:02

YES! Thumbs up sir!

His Stigness > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:03

I find it kind of shitty when some of the writers on Jalopnik take our posts, make their own and then stick your's at the bottom of the page. If they like it, just promote it.

Brian, The Life of > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:03

GranTurismo has had this for years.

;)

doodon2whls > His Stigness
09/06/2013 at 18:07

I think that is how the promotion feature looks/works now. Note that you can recommend Raph's promotion-post, but all the discussion stays on the original post in Oppo.

tehGnomeArmy > Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents
09/06/2013 at 18:08

I would like to see an aerial shot of the start with this thermal tech, the rears would light up like a Christmas tree.

His Stigness > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:10

No cause I've had Patrick promote my first Tale this way, then Matt just published my second Tale directly onto the front page of Jalopnik, so they can just publish it instead of making their own post then promoting yours on the bottom.

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His Stigness > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:11

Nevermind, I guess it's a different way of promoting it since all the comments and views are still credited on yours. I guess I jumped the gun.

desertdog5051 > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:12

Amazing, never saw it in F-1 before. Love the camber they put in those cars.

doodon2whls > His Stigness
09/06/2013 at 18:15

In this case, I wasn't really posting something 'worthy' of the FP... It was more a shout-out to my Opponaut peeps to check it out... Therefore, the editors can promote the post this way and add a little appropriate context or front story to the original post to make it more in line with FP material.

If it's a well written piece that is worthy of a direct share, then the editors can share it on the FP from Oppo.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I think it works.

In any event, I think it's cool that the FP editors spend some time on Oppo and regularly put our material on the FP.

Andrew Daisuke > 2BWise
09/06/2013 at 18:19

I wonder what the temperature range is that they're displaying?

Dude, it's right there. Purple to Orange.

Baber K. Khan > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:21

Yeah cool and all that. But F1 with its puny 1.6 liter engines and fuel saving etc etc...few years more and you won't hear one coming or going. Right now, you have to look at the board to see who has passed who...but atleast you could have the aural pleasure. I was watching the practice session today, it was just some men and fancy cartoonish cars going around a race track, nothing exciting. I couldn't seriously care less about F1 from then on. I wish NASCAR introduced some corners, seriously, a motorsports where a nudge on the rear bumper is legal to overtake...it just need some corners.

doodon2whls > Baber K. Khan
09/06/2013 at 18:22

Sounds like you need a dose of Australian V8 Super Car Racing... Those boys get it done the way you like it.

His Stigness > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:23

Oh I know your post was more of a "hey check this out" instead of my articles.

But like I said, I jumped the gun and realized that your original post actually gets the views and comments.

Baber K. Khan > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:24

Yeah, I watch them over at youtube every now and then.

Racescort666 > 2BWise
09/06/2013 at 18:31

I noticed this as well. My initial reaction was Ackerman as has been mentioned but my experience with open wheel cars has been that you want reverse Ackerman since the outside tire deforms so much. This could still be the case though. At turn in, the outside tire is loaded and the inside is scrubbing causing it to heat up faster. As the turn progresses the load on the outside tire causes it to heat up as the inside tire is unloaded. This is all purely speculative though.

bwwooster > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 18:48

Dang! How I wish I had this for my IT car. The trouble is, when it becomes available to club racers, it'll probably carry a price tag that pushes the top guys even farther to the front...

2nd gear just exploded > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 19:14

I smell something fishy....

If this is truly a FLIR camera, shouldn't the sidewalls of the tire be getting at least a little warm? Usually black on a Flir camera means it is the very bottom the temp scale, but i cant see how the sidewalls of a tire and even the areas of tire that arent "hot" should at least have some residual heat? rubber doesnt have near the specific heat of most metals but i feel like it should take longer to cool to a "dark" temp.

Anyone else agree with me or am i just over analyzing it?

terriblecircus > His Stigness
09/06/2013 at 19:19

cant have anything on the front page without making a GIF, don't you know how gawker works?

xtrappedunderricex > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 19:23

Someone should ad some predator clicking and that color spectrum into the vid.

Over hereeeeeee

GR1M RACER : Wrong Most of the Time > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 19:26

NASCAR!

Brad Waller > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 19:34

I don't think there was any masking going on. The false colors are set for a certain temperature range which was way higher than any other temperature in the scene. F1 tires run 70-90 degrees Celsius (160-195 F) and I didn't see anything else that would be running that warm in the scene.

clear-prop > 2nd gear just exploded
09/06/2013 at 19:44

I'd expect to see some glow from the brakes too.

This looks fake like the fake 'wind tunnel' graphics NASCAR used a few years back to how the air moved in the pack.

doodon2whls > Brad Waller
09/06/2013 at 19:48

There is plenty of other hardware in that scene that would light up in that temp range.

Wheels, tire sidewalls, parts near the brakes, etc... They must have tweaked the color temp mask to an incredibly tight band to catch the working temps of the tires only.. I still think there are other parts in that shot that would light up. Look at the NASCAR IR camera video...

SaiDas > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 20:07

Very cool, but I'd really like to see this applied to the Grid Girls too. Give one to Will Buxton's cameraman during the pre race show along with Will's commentary. Women don't watch F1 anyway!

vic06 > 2nd gear just exploded
09/06/2013 at 20:10

Depends on the upper and lower thresholds you pick. Looks like they used the available heat map to show the small variations of temperature within the range of the working temps of the tire. Otherwise, if you expand the color map to pick up the whole tire and the brakes, the difference in color between the sidewalls and the center will not be noticeable.

Money Hustard > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 20:15

This, this is why I lived to see the future.

vic06 > bwwooster
09/06/2013 at 20:21

You can get IR sensors from tens of manufacturers. A lot of people use them and you can get a readout and a couple of sensors from $500. The feedback can be in form of a temperature value or a light that changes color depending whether the tire, gearbox, axle, engine... (whatever the sensor is pointed at) is below, in or above the optimal temperature.

Link dump!

http://www.durbahn.de/Electronics%20…

http://www.shop-racing.com/tyre-temperatu…

http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2010/12/…

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/RacePak/racepa…

http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/Products/Produ…

http://www.texense.com/en/produits/ra…

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/langua…

http://www.uniprolaptimer.com/shop/ir-tire-t…

http://www.competitiondata.com/sensors/pg6_te…

http://www.motec.com/sensors/temper…

http://performancetrends.com/Affordable-0-5…

DCrants > Icemanmaybeirunoutofthetalents
09/06/2013 at 20:21

They did show another thermal camera angle somewhere around the nose/wing that faces towards the rear. I can't recall if you could see the rear wheels or not (I was on a conference call so wasn't paying close attention), but there's at least one other angle out there that I saw.

ScreenShot > 2BWise
09/06/2013 at 20:31

I took this to study under hood on my car - scale is on the right. Circled component is a distributor-less ignition module, pedestal mounted on an accessory bracket above the A/C compressor. Yellow is thermostat housing and upper radiator hose.

Kinja'd!!!

Pdexter > GR1M RACER : Wrong Most of the Time
09/06/2013 at 20:34

F1 had the thermal camera on the pits year or two ago as well. Actually, I don't think I have seen it this year used on any of the races. We are all after all watching the same FOM broadcast.

doodon2whls > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 20:57

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onerunjunior > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:06

I really hate to say this, but NASCAR was doing this like 15 years ago. What the hell, Bernie?

doodon2whls > Racescort666
09/06/2013 at 21:06

Not to mention these guys are likely trail braking to get the cars to rotate... With so much rear downforce (to put down power) and a long wheelbase, it's tough to get the cars to rotate. Every car is set up to leverage the tire characteristic curves to the max in it's own way, and to the driver's style/comfort. Claude Rouelle from Optimum G: (to be read in a heavy French accent) "So many 'smart' chassis engrs come to me for set up advice on their car. The first thing I am asking them is, 'Where are your tire curves?'" - Classic Claude

doodon2whls > onerunjunior
09/06/2013 at 21:08

I only recall seeing the IR footage of the pits recently on NASCAR, and not on track.

thisusernameforsale > Baber K. Khan
09/06/2013 at 21:10

It's not the size of the engine, but how you use it.

doodon2whls > bwwooster
09/06/2013 at 21:17

Uh, the top teams most definitely have some instrumentation to measure tire temps. Maybe not FLIR, but laser temp sensors to measure inner, center, and outer tire temps during and after sessions. FLIR is a pretty picture/visualization, but DAG's are used to looking at channel traces lap after lap. Heck, we had instrumented tire temps for performance vehicle dynamics tuning at the OEM production car level.

On a penny budget, you should at least purchase a Tire Pyrometer (IR or contact) and measure tire temps immediately after pulling into the pits. That should give you an idea of how you are working your tires and if you need to make camber adjustments.

Matt Brown > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:22

It looks like the inside tire gets warmer than the outside just before turns. Do they distribute brake force predicatively so they can get more yaw and/or keep outside tire temp from getting too high?

doodon2whls > Matt Brown
09/06/2013 at 21:28

Yes, trail braking into corner entry can help the normally understeer cars rotate and would heat the inside tire just before/diring turn-in.

Matt Brown > Matt Brown
09/06/2013 at 21:28

I suppose it is probably the extra slip ratio and smaller contact patch of the slightly less loaded tire under braking.

onerunjunior > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:30

Maybe at the road courses? I can't remember. But I swear I've seen NASCAR broadcasts use IR cameras on the cars.

King Ginger, not writing for Business Insider > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:31

This is straight tits.

POD > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:44

Awesome post! Love the IR footage.

For me (and I haven't read the comments yet to see if this has been said) it really puts into perspective why the "stance" movement needs to stop. This is a full on, open wheeled, Grand Prix car. This car is designed to have a huge camber because it is going to corner with enough force (and often enough) to justify it. It needs massive grip in the corners. On the straights, it can get away with the camber because the GP motor is not going to torque-out the wheels.

Not to mention that the car has a full pit crew that will change the tires out when they start to go.

Kinja'd!!!

protodad > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 21:46

Amazing that they have that much grip with only 2/3 - 1/4 of the tire touching in the straight.

signintokinjalol > His Stigness
09/06/2013 at 22:04

Fuck Jalopnik! Death to the E30 M3's!

Just kidding...

PardonMyFlemish16 > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 22:30

2 questions:

1. Is this real life

2. Why is there no heat eminating from the "human" driver

doodon2whls > PardonMyFlemish16
09/06/2013 at 22:31

1) Yes this is real life.

2) Most likely because the 'color-temperature' is masked and finely tuned to show only the temperature gradient on the tires' circumferences and not the rest of the items in the shot.

PardonMyFlemish16 > doodon2whls
09/06/2013 at 22:34

Yea Im gonna stick to my theory that these guys are robots. OR at least cold blooded life forms

otapunk > Baber K. Khan
09/07/2013 at 00:43

You know, there's lots and lots racing series for you out there if you just want to see cars crash. F1 is all about talented drivers and team tactics, lots of us enjoy that kind of thing. Just watch some Jokkis.

otapunk > onerunjunior
09/07/2013 at 01:02

But.. how? You can't see NASCAR tires from the car. I think this is cool, it'll be nice to see how tires heat up in the corners on different cars and drivers, but then again NASCAR doesn't have corners..

onerunjunior > otapunk
09/07/2013 at 01:09

I don't think it was the tires per se, just various bits of the car. I could be completely wrong, but something in my brain is telling me I've seen this in a NASCAR broadcast years ago.

EAGLE 5 > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 02:15

Two words:

NEGATIVE CAMBER!!!!

Seriously cool stuff!!!!

howie > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 02:29

Do they run crazy amounts of negative camber on an F1 car or is that something else causing the tire to heat up (if the scale goes dark to bright as temp rises) along the inside?

And for you old timers out there her is some trivia for ya' - remember back when no mater how much you kept up with rotations, air pressure and alignment on radials and the damn things would still wear out along the edges like the tires were always run under inflated.

Guess what? Just like you told the tire guy, you maintained the tires and the tire guy had the unmitigated gall to tell you that you were full of shit. What he didn't know and the industry didn't tell him was that earlier radials (I think as late as the 90's) had an issue with the ends of the belts fluttering because they had not been properly supported.

As the tire went down the road and the edges of the belts were allowed to flutter, the tires built up a lot of heat along the edges (like the animated GIF shows) which made the rubber go soft and increase wear. I know Michelin at least figured out how to stabilize the belts by placing a wedge of harder rubber in there to not only increase tire life but also allow traction improving technology like decoupled tread elements.

Diesel > DasWauto
09/07/2013 at 03:05

Are you able to watch F1 live with this also? I can watch Top Gear on the BBC iPlayer, but I can't access Sky Sports online.

The man in the iron mask > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 03:33

i saw this today and i was like, wtf thats awesome,

Ce he sin > Baber K. Khan
09/07/2013 at 06:01

I remember a time when f1 used puny 1.5 litre engines and the world didn't come to an end. Indeed BMW used to use production blocks which were literally taken from used cars.

Relax. The new look f1 will be ok.

Baber K. Khan > otapunk
09/07/2013 at 08:13

You have it all wrong. I don't want to see crashes. I want to see good driving and drivers. Today, F1 drivers are more enthusiastic about Top gear's power lap then they look about F1. I am sure you must enjoy it and many other. Not hating on them, but this way, don't you think they won't be able to retain and attract new fans?

doodon2whls > howie
09/07/2013 at 08:51

Lots of static negative camber and some bump-camber gain in the suspension geometry as well.

Joe Claffey Jr. > DCrants
09/07/2013 at 10:10

You couldn't see the rear wheels. However, if you were looking closely, you could see the radiators heat up when the car went to full throttle. (h/t to Steve Matchett for pointing that out)

ORANGE! > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire
09/07/2013 at 10:23

I'M RIGHT HERE! DO IT! DO IT NOW!!

EDogg > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 14:38

And THAT is why you rotate your tires!

DasWauto > Diesel
09/07/2013 at 15:34

I'm not sure. I can't say I've tried. I'm not sure whether BBC or Sky even stream the race or quali online.

FerMorcillo > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 15:54

It's surprising that F1 takes so long to show this kind of stuff.

Here in Argentina we've been watching these for a couple of seasons already.

Carburetor camera:

Driveshaft and diff camera:

trickledick > doodon2whls
09/07/2013 at 22:31

Do you think the thermal cameras will see though the tire and register the hot brakes rather than just the tires? It kinda looks like it might be registering the brakes.

Do you think that's plausible?

howie > doodon2whls
09/08/2013 at 00:55

I thought so, while there is no scale to compare by that was a pretty interesting video in terms of how the alignment caused heat build up in the tires.

RapCat > Matt Brown
09/08/2013 at 01:20

No. That's against the rules. Can't distribute brake force dynamically between left and right. Driver can only control front and back distribution.

BMWrider25 > DasWauto
09/08/2013 at 23:49

I can't wait to see if this app works while I'm deployed [to unnamed country in the Middle East] very soon. Sir, you've just made my day.

Azzy > 2nd gear just exploded
09/09/2013 at 14:36

at they tuned in the range to only see the really hot portions? Otherwise, you would be able to see some of the tire tracks from the driver ahead, or strange portions of the track "lit" because of the sun laying on the tarmac.

DoctorDick > doodon2whls
09/09/2013 at 18:09

They should add thermal imaging to the helicopter views. I'm not sure how it would work but I feel like in theory it would be awesome.

NickMan2 > 2nd gear just exploded
05/28/2014 at 14:37

I'd say that this is graphic imaging from data they are collecting some how and it isn't straight heat sensing. That's the supposed white/grey look FLIR gives off. So it's "Fake" but not fake? An educated guess by some algorithm that's layered over the video feed?

NickMan2 > NickMan2
05/28/2014 at 14:38

yea... watch the left tire at about the 23 second mark. it shifts out of the area and the black "heat" area stays put where it is. It's just a layer over the video feed. Still pretty cool but not exactly FLIR